SHYNESS EVAPORATES: College Science Students Use InterPlay Storytelling Methods to Convey Their Nature Observations

BECOMING THE ANIMAL. Embodying the animals they study, observe, and track in their freshman seminar course, "How to Interpret Behavior You Did Not See," gives the students a new way of thinking about science. Here in this InterPlay following and leading activity, Emory students are experiencing "flocking behavior." (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Written by Ruth Schowalter, Certified InterPlay Leader and InterPlay Art and Soul Creativity Coach

Bi-annually, my husband Tony Martin, an Emory University professor, teaches a freshman seminar titled “How to Interpret Behavior You Did Not See.” Enrollment is restricted to eighteen students, who during the semester will learn the art of nature observation and then how to make hypotheses using the evidence they have collected.  In March near the end of spring semester, Tony invited me to this class as a guest instructor to offer InterPlay improvisation storytelling activities. My facilitation was to provide his students with the tools to breathe life into their nature reports. I was to offer them the avenue of becoming impassioned storytellers, inspiring wonder both in themselves and their listeners!

BIG BODY STORIES. Students took facts from their nature observation journals and had the experience of expanding their enthusiasm both vocally and physically by taking incremental steps with different partners, first in 30-second short "tellings," then a minute-long story, and finally a longer fuller bigger story. On the far right, standing, telling his "big body" story is Tony Martin, who paired up with a student. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Identifying tracks of deer, squirrel, raccoon, feral cat, coyotes, and other animals in the areas surrounding the Emory campus is just the beginning of what these first-year students learn. Tony teaches them how to look at gait patterns and determine if the animals were walking, trotting or galloping. In fact, he gets them out of their desks early on to “become” the animals and act out the gait patterns—a creative way to stimulate the students’ imaginations by getting them to think and move like the animals they are tracking in this Georgia Piedmont.

A regular part of this animal tracking class is venturing outdoors with Tony to nearby creeks and tree stands on campus so the students can examine tracks, discover other sign like scat, chew marks, and nests. They also listen to bird calls to discern together what these animals were or are doing. Traditionally, tracking animals has been a communal or shared endeavor by both women and men to hunt down their food source or to avoid predation—so its fitting that the elder—the professor—initiates the youth in ways of observing animal sign, its significance, and how to talk about it.

Apart from these class activities, students are given the assignment of choosing a semester-long “sit spot” on the Emory campus with its 154-acre nature preserve, Lullwater Park, and other creek-rich forested landscapes. On their own, they are to spend time in this designated spot twice a week for periods no shorter than 15 minutes, recording in journals what their senses reveal to them. In addition to verbal documentation, Tony encourages them to draw what they see, as well as writing down temperature, the direction the wind is blowing, and more. All great fodder for storytelling!

DESCRIBE YOUR "SIT SPOT." Students were directed to turn to the diagram in their journals that they had drawn of their designated "sit spot" on the Emory campus. Then with their partner "witnessing" or listening and not talking, they were to describe the diagram in detail speaking slowly, pausing, and then speaking normally again. Practicing playing with speed (regular, fast, stopping, and slow) provides students with new delivery skills. They can see for themselves what works to communicate the ideas they want to express. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Can you imagine what a treat it was for me to join this class mid-to-end of the semester and facilitate the sharing of their recorded journal experiences using InterPlay activities? Yippee! For those of you familiar with InterPlay, you know that one of the four components of this improvisational system is storytelling (the other three being movement, voice, and shape and stillness). InterPlay was a perfect fit with its improvisational toolkit for these students at this time in their animal-tracking curriculum and storytelling skills! The world becomes more alive when you share information through stories, especially when those stories can be stream of consciousness, free form, and impassioned.

Jon Young, one of two authors of Animal Tracking Basics, the textbook Tony uses for this course, says that we tell stories “to elucidate the edges of our experience.” We also use storytelling to propel us to perceive more deeply, discern what we are seeing, link disparate concepts, know our place, know ourselves, develop a passion for living, learn and laugh—to live more fully in the moment.

Both fifty-minute InterPlay classes included physical warm ups, introductions, playing around with expanding verbal range (volume, speed, and pitch) and physical range (face, hand gestures, moving off “the spot” and using available space), leading and following, and “embodying” the story.

During the first workshop, I asked the students to do short storytellings (in InterPlay we call these tellings “babbling”) at 30-second and 1-minute intervals about different native animals, weather observations, bird language and more. Students then had longer time periods to open their journals and describe their “sit spots” in detail playing around with speed by lengthening their words, pausing, and stopping. To shift students into using their imaginations even more, I asked them to pick something animate or inanimate from their sit spot and to tell a story from that perspective. Lots of energy erupted in the classroom for that activity.

In the second workshop, I built on the skills of expanding both verbal and physical range. After warming up with following and leading activities in pairs and groups of 7, I led them in the InterPlay form of the “big body” story, which has the storyteller move in ever increasing “body bubbles.” The workshop culminated in students “becoming” an animal they were curious about and had researched either folklore or scientific fact about. In groups of three, students spoke as the animal demonstrating its behavior and telling its story! I was so surprised when I said, “Begin!” and all of the storytelling students dropped to the floor on their hands and knees and crawled to their listeners. Wow! They were engaged, and so were their listeners.

BECOME THE ANIMAL. After investigating an animal they were curious about for homework, students were asked to be prepared to speak from that animal's perspective. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Tony and I left the classroom with one student participant who was dressed in a suit. He had informed me before the workshop started that he was giving a presentation in another class later in the afternoon. I asked him if he felt more prepared to present after my InterPlay workshops. He laughed and responded, “I’m ready for anything now.” Hurray for the empowering system of InterPlay!

Here’s some direct feedback from Tony about the effects of InterPlay on teaching storytelling skills to his students:

2016 Spring Semester Class, "How to Interpret Behavior You Did Not See." Professor Tony Martin leads the way for expressiveness as he stretches out in front of his first year Emory students enrolled in his animal tracking class. Some of the students grasp their observation journals in their hands. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

“Storytelling is an important skill for my first-year students to learn in my animal-tracking class, "How to Interpret Behavior You Did Not See." In fact, the author of the textbook for this class (Animal Tracking, by Jon Young) devotes an entire chapter to this skill. As a way to introduce my students to storytelling methods, I invited Ruth Schowalter (my wife), a certified leader in the improvisational system of InterPlay, to conduct two 50-minute workshops.  My goal was for the students to bring their journals in which they had been recording observations from their designated "sit spots" around the Emory campus, and to use that content to tell stories.

Most traditional education systems involve reading, sitting, listening to a lecture, and reciting back facts, with students and instructors alike staying mostly in their heads. InterPlay's activities emphasize using the "whole" person--body, mind, and emotions, engaging  the students’ kinesthetic imaginations. I saw my students transformed by this full-body approach to learning.

As they shared their records of tracks and sign and created "animal stories," their shyness evaporated and they became involved in communicating their nature observations meaningfully. The dynamic InterPlay storytelling exercises enlivened the students as they worked with one another in pairs, small groups, and the entire class.

Based on what I observed, the combination of student-generated content and interactive InterPlay exercises in these workshops will be memorable to my students. What a wonderful opportunity to enjoy making meaning out of scientific fact, and crafting that content in a way to engage listeners!”

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: First many thanks to Phil Porter and Cynthia Winton-Henry, to co-founders of InterPlay. Special thanks to Phil who mentored me during my InterPlay leadership training and made suggestions I implemented the first time I facilitated InterPlay in Tony’s freshman seminar (read about that workshop HERE). I’m appreciative to Tony and his interest in encouraging his students to have fun learning and gain presentation skills at the same time. I am grateful to those freshman who were courageous in moving outside their comfort zones to embody their stories. And, as Tony always does, I want to thank the tracemakers who inhabit the Earth and make our world a fuller richer place.

Integrating InterPlay with Science Communication. Thank you to my husband Tony Martin (his photo of me), who continues to enlarge my life-experiences through travel, geology, paleontology, modern and ancient ichnology. It is such a joy collaborating with you. Here are links to two other blog posts about our collaborations of merging InterPlay with science communication: 

ImprovisingTrilobite Eyes: InterPlaying with Evolutionary Concepts at the Atlanta ScienceFestival 2016 

Using InterPlay for Science Communication: Improv-ing Evolution

Improvising Trilobite Eyes: InterPlaying with Evolutionary Concepts at the Atlanta Science Festival

TRILOBITES GONE MAD! Improvising trilobites in an InterPlay "Walk Stop Run," participants make eye contact before going into a "lean" or making contact with another trilobite. This photo was taken at the end of the activity after participants had been invited to create a "Trilobite Party." (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Written by Ruth Schowalter, certified InterPlay leader and InterPlay Art and Soul Creativity Coach

“Trilobite Eyes” was a comment one participant left on Facebook beneath the group photo of the InterPlay workshop my scientist husband and I facilitated on Sunday, March 20 for the 2016 Atlanta Science Festival. After all, we had done the activity, “Walk Stop Run,” adding “the lean” using “Trilobite Eyes,” to ask another person’s permission through eye contact before engaging in some physical contact to support each others' weight, and then using eye contact again before disengaging from one another.

Titled “Improv-ing Evolution,” our two-hour collaboration where evolutionary concepts met the improvisational system of InterPlay was a resounding success! Participants reported having so much fun, laughing, and patting their chests as they proclaimed it a Sunday afternoon well spent. Other responses expressed surprise, such as “I learned something!” And it was wonderful to discover that often the acquisition of knowledge came from a partner, not the workshop facilitator and authority on the evolution content—Tony Martin, paleontologist, author, and Emory professor in the Department of Environmental Sciences, nor me, the certified InterPlay leader.

INTERGENERATIONAL BABBLE.  The goal of this InterPlay/Science workshop was to have all ages play together with the topic of evolution. We began with some children participating in short "tellings" but since the event was geared for all ages and not just children, the children opted to leave--sadly. We learn from each other, no matter the age. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

How to play with scientific topics? How to engage the “whole” person—in addition to the mind—the body, heart, and spirit? Although we are in the beginning stages of teasing together science content with InterPlay’s respectful improvisational forms and principles, Tony and I find it deeply satisfying to share moments of discovery and insights with participants that feel joyful. 
During this workshop that took place at Core Dance Studios in Decatur Square, I noticed slowly dawning smiles, sudden gasps expressing epiphanies, and a physical expansiveness as they connected with each other through stories and movement.  And these were emotional and physical responses while discussing abstract concepts like deep time and co-evolution through pollination! Yes!

Before we had danced “Trilobite Eyes,” we did a typical InterPlay warm-up series, which included saying our names twice (even though there were more than 25 participants) and choosing a motion and having everyone repeat it. In our case, we had everyone choose a plant or animal and create an action his/her body wanted to make to express it. The workshop “fun” was ignited in the circle as everyone rapidly generated a surprisingly different movement to accompany sloth, rosemary, dinosaur, tree, or dog, or whatever…. It was clear that individual creativity was present in the room!

EMBODIED LEARNING IN COMMUNITY. “Judith and I thoroughly enjoyed the “Improv-ing Evolution” workshop and found it to be a wonderful learning experience," wrote Robert Vogt, Ph.D. and Research Chemist (far right in this photo).  "The diversity of participants was a big plus, with everyone contributing in their own ways during the different interplays.  Tony’s presentations included fascinating perspectives of our geologic and biologic history, and  I personally picked up many insights about a topic I thought I knew pretty well. Promoting science outreach and communication is critical for progress and pluralism in our society, and I am glad to endorse your efforts." 

Playing with the context of “deep time,” we stretched, hugged ourselves, swung our legs, and made big hip circles to the song, “Ages of Rock” on Ray Troll’s album, “Cruisin’ theFossil Freeway.” We embodied the idea that evolution takes time, and that the billions of years comprising the Earth’s history are divided into periods on the geologic time scale. Scientists divide these periods with names like Cambrian, Mississippian, and Jurassic by significant earth events, like the separation of the continents, or mass extinctions, or life explosions. We found that participants, after moving to “Ages of Rock” and asked to describe the periods or stages of their lives to a partner, also defined their life stages by important events, such as graduation, jobs, marriages, children, and illness.

Once again, just as we did in our workshop at the 2016 Southeastern Evolutionary Perspectives Society conference at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa in February, Tony and I introduced two explanations of how change occurs, Phyletic Gradualism and Punctuated Equilibrium, using “Incremental Steps” and “Walk Stop Run” (see this blog post).

PHYLETIC GRADUALISM. Here paleontologist Tony Martin introduces the concept of change that occurs slowly over time in a "micro-lecture" using a simple illustration that he drew. Participants had a chance to embody this concept using incremental steps, placing one foot after another to get to another place in the room. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

As my husband and I explore how to combine scientific concepts with InterPlay forms, we are developing an organizational structure of play with "micro-lectures." The scientist (Tony) intermittently offers content and answers questions as they occur. Then participants are invited to embody or create with that content in a personal way either through babbling, longer forms of story telling, and solo or group movement.

WAITING TO BE POLLINATED. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Perhaps, the most loved activity during our workshop was the one that introduced the concept of co-evolution and genetic variation. Beginning about 130 million years ago, pollinating insects show up in the fossil record at about the same time as flowering plants. After Tony explained how flowering plants and insects must have co-evolved, and still are today, everyone had the opportunity to become both a pollinator and a flowering plant. Taking turns, half the group watched or “witnessed” while the other half pollinated or were pollinated through movement to songs such as “The Flight of the Bumblebee” or “The Four Seasons.” The idea was that the flowering plants used shape and stillness. When they were pollinated they changed shapes. Pollinators were given the permission to explore their own modes of movement to express engaging with a flower.

FLOWERING PLANTS CHANGED SHAPES ECSTATICALLY. "My favorite Improv-ing activities during this workshop included Pollinators and Flowering Plants," wrote participant Joyce Kinnard, J.D., M.S., Licensed Professional Counselor. "We could improvise the delight of a flying insect going from one plant to another on a beautiful spring day, or a flower which is enjoying the visits of bees helping to spread its pollen. This fun activity illustrates the importance of organism and species interdependence in the evolutionary process." (Photo by Tony Martin)

Energy flooded the room during this pollinating frenzy. Witnesses, flowering plants, and pollinators were enlivened. Magic happened. Laughter punctuated individualized choices of movement and connection. “I will never see pollen the same again,” said participant Carol Glickman, M.S. Applied Linguistics and educator. She waved her hand out beyond the dance studio windows from where we were "playshopping." The Decatur, Georgia, skies were darkly yellowed with spring pollen. “I will hear these soundtracks and imagine all kinds of behavior going on that was invisible to me before,” she finished.

NOTICING. At intervals "Improv-ing Evolution" participants were asked to check-in with what they were experiencing and to share what they noticed with a partner or the whole group. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

The two hours we had together for this Atlanta Science Festival workshop were too short. Tony and I had planned enough activities for a day! We didn’t get a chance to explore movement from dinosaurs to birds (which are modern day dinosaurs), nor did we get to do the hand-to-hand contact to embody our evolution from fish to humans using Ray Troll’s song, “Fish Face.”

FOLLOWING AND LEADING IN ANIMAL GROUPS. To play around with co-evolution within a species, Tony and I divided the big group into four smaller ones and asked the members to decide what animal group they wanted to be. Here in the photo, the nearest group chose to be eagles and the group behind them dogs or wolves. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

But before concluding our time together with these enthusiastic particpants, we had the opportunity to “flock,” “school,” or “herd”—that is to play around with evolution within a species and cooperative group behavior. After dividing the participants into four groups, each chose an animal to embody together. Wolves, geese, eagles, and lemmings then warmed up by taking turns being leaders and followers within their groups before “flocking” (moving together as a group) for the rest of the participants to watch. 

WITNESSING EAGLES FOLLOWING AND LEADING.

Surprised laughter erupted again. The movements were so different based on the chosen animal! Also there was committed cooperative leading and following. As the last group finished “herding” moving to Shakira’s song, “Eyes Like Yours,” I invited everyone to join in. There was a riotous uproar as everyone leapt up to dance and move with the lemmings. Oh my goodness! I joined them too!

PERSONAL EVOLUTION STORY. As our workshop came to an end, we invited participants to share their own evolution stories, using movement, a made-up language, or English. (photo by Ruth Schowalter)

Tony Martin and I will continue this journey of playing with science to experience it kinesthetically and emotionally in addition to understanding it intellectually. I hope you will join us!

Improv-ing Evolution GROUP PHOTO! (photo by Atlanta Science Festival volunteer, Michelle Schmitz)

Acknowledgments: Meisa Salaita and Jordan Rose of the Atlanta Science Festival. The volunteers Amanda, Michelle and Michelle, my husband and collaborator, Tony Martin, the InterPlay Atlanta family who attended, Jay and Yumi from CPACS and the Clarkston Community Center, and all the new participants that showed up and dedicated themselves to playing and learning. Thanks to scientists Bill Witherspoon and Pamela Gore, authors of Roadside Geology of Georgia. And as always thanks to InterPlay co-founders, Phil Porter and Cynthia Winton-Henry.

EVALUATIONS. Wonderful to see everyone stay after and fill out the Atlanta Science Festival evaluations. (photo by Ruth Schowalter--you can see me in the mirror)

INTERPLAY and the ATLANTA SCIENCE FESTIVAL. InterPlay Atlanta was a partner with the 2016 Atlanta Science Festival. We were in good company with local universities, schools, businesses, and organizations.

 

Using InterPlay for Science Communication: Improv-ing Evolution

written by Ruth Schowalter, certified InterPlay leader and InterPlay Art & Soul Creativity Coach

“Everyone spread out and find a space in the room. Now, find another space in the room that you want to travel to. Put one foot in front of the other and take your time getting to that spot. Once you arrive at your destination, you may decide to go to somewhere else in the room.”

I delivered these seemingly mysterious directions to a group of university students and professors who attended the collaborative workshop that my scientist husband, Tony Martin, and I gave at the 1st annual Southeastern Evolutionary Perspectives Society (SEEPS) meeting, which was held at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, during Valentine’s weekend 2016. Titled “Improv-ing Your Teaching and Learning of Evolution,” we teased together evolutionary concepts with improvisational forms from InterPlay so that scientists and scientists-in-training might experience “embodying” nuggets of intellectual concepts.

Introducing InterPlay with my collaborator, Tony Martin, Professor of Practice in Environmental Sciences at Emory University (left), and SEEPS organizer, Christopher Lynn, Associate Professor of Anthropology and Director of Evolutionary Studies. Facilitating this workshop with me has temporarily shifted Tony's position in relation to teaching students. "I'm no longer a sage on the stage, but a guide," he described his experience to me. "It's rewarding to see students learning in another way other than just using their minds."

Once the participants had taken incremental steps across the room to various chosen spots and were standing still, I stopped the languid music of “La Vie en Rose,” and asked, “What evolutionary concept might this activity represent?” Tony and I were surprised at the rapid and numerous responses that flew around the room--beak shapes in finches and neck length in tortoises--for instance. Yes! Bingo! Those are examples of the evolutionary concept, Phyletic Gradualism, which explains slow change that happens with species over time.

Incremental Steps help participants embody the evolutionary concept of Phyletic Gradualism.

INCREMENTAL STEPPING. “This workshop was so much cooler than I ever expected it to be!," anthropology major Kelly Likos (left) wrote me. "Usually workshops are just a new way to get boring information, but not this one! It was early Sunday morning and we had had very little caffeine but that didn't matter after a few minutes! The workshop quickly turned into a type of team building exercise, and I am so thankful for that! Since the workshop I have been thinking of the ways we learned to listen to each other, the value of range, and using our bodies to learn! I am so thankful to Ruth and Tony for sharing their talents with us!” 

Following the InterPlay activity of taking incremental steps to "embody" Phyletic Gradualism, we engaged the participants in "Walk Stop Run," an InterPlay form that invites everyone to make choices about what their individual bodies want to do: be still (stop), move at a leisurely pace (walk), or accelerate speed (run). Once we stopped the activity, everyone was ready to offer up evolutionary related ideas this InterPlay form might represent, especially after we added "the lean," which allows people to physically lean against one or more other participants. The response "mate selection" was my favorite answer!

Gesturing to the Powerpoint slide (below), Tony connected the "Walk Run Stop" activity with another mode of evolution, "Punctuated Equilibrium," which is when species experience stasis (no change--stop) for long periods of time followed by rapid change (walk/run). For example, this might happen when sea animals like mollusks live, breed, and die for thousands of years, and then are dramatically impacted by sea level change and must adapt or die out.

Walk Stop Run illustrates the evolutionary concept of Punctuated Equilibrium.

In addition to these InterPlay forms, we played around with "Babbling" or short tellings, and a version of "Following and Leading" that offered the participants an opportunity to have a physical experience of flocking, herding, or schooling behavior in animals. 

BABBLING ACTIVITY. In addition to telling their "personal" evolutionary stories, participants were invited to explain a "boring" evolutionary idea with enthusiasm. "I thought the workshop was really fascinating, and a great learning experience that was totally out of the box," commented sophomore anthropology major, Jensen Brown. "Even when I was talking about the most boring evolutionary idea I could think of, I found myself feeling enthusiastic about it because of how the activity was structured. It was a really great idea, and I would be glad to do something like it again!"

REFLECTIONS ON FLOCKING (Following and Leading): "I realized that you (Tony and Ruth) were adapting InterPlay exercises not just to illustrate evolutionary concepts, but to let people live them," wrote Andrew Rindsberg, associate professor of environmental geology and paleontology at the University of West Alabama. "After all, not all evolution is competitive; some aspects are cooperative. The flocking exercise effectively demonstrated humans' natural instinct to work together.

"By placing us close together (but only after getting us to loosen up with bonding experiences first), and encouraging us to follow the leader of the flock, you got us all moving in tandem. The leader of the flock could do anything from raising a hand to rolling over on the floor in the spirit of play. You got us to play together, and that's bonding.

"Since the leader of the flock could change at a moment's notice, everyone had the feeling that they could do anything for the group as leader or follower, and no one was left out. What a fine bonding experience for the attendees of a new-formed society having its first annual conference. I think that those who did not attend the workshop really missed something, and it should be included in subsequent conferences."

CONCLUSION: I would like to conclude this blog post about our first "Improv-ing Evolution" workshop with some NOTICING. In InterPlay, we do stuff and then "notice." First of all, it felt fantastic to see the willingness of these college students, many of them University of Alabama students, to play with such high energy. Next, this was a Sunday morning (Valentine's Day 2016) at 8:30 AM, and other "older" conference participants hovered on the edges of our classroom with coffee in hand, hesitating to enter. There appeared to be interest in our activity, but also some resistance. Yes, fifty minutes was too short a time for our high ambitions. We knew this going into the workshop. Some refining needs to take place.

So for our next "Improv-ing Evolution" workshop, we will have two full hours. We are so excited to be a part of the Atlanta Science Festival! Join Tony Martin and me on Sunday, March 20th, 3:30-5:30 in our town of Decatur, Georgia, at Core Studios. Our workshop is FREE but requires you to register with me at ruthtruth@mindspring.com or 404-580-2392.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: Thanks as always to Phil Porter and Cynthia Winton-Henry, co-founders of InterPlay. Many thanks to my beloved husband and collaborator, Tony Martin, and his colleague, Andrew Rindsberg. Great appreciation to the student organizers of SEEPS--your enthusiasm and participation in all of the conference was inspirational. And finally, a big shout out and applause to Christopher Lynn and his boundless energy to make this conference happen, as well as his documentation of the entire event. Here is his reflection of our workshop:

"I thought it was wonderful and, like Tyler's presentation using drawing and animation, epitomized our vision for multi-modal integration of science and 'ways of knowing.' Or, in English, I fully appreciate the importance of the epiphanies or clarity that can be achieved in our brains by involving our body. We tend to embody mind/body dualism by simply sitting and to people talk AT us, despite our rhetoric about the body/mind as integrated. It is challenging to get folks to actually explore 'knowing' from an unfamiliar or uncomfortable perspective. I would be curious to see those how those who stood outside the room and waited for the workshop to be over or got up late to avoid rank on Openness to Experience. 

Christopher Lynn

On the other hand, I know many of the students were unsure about it at first but cited it after as one of their favorite events of the meeting and the one that lent them the most insight. It was not as theoretically over their heads as some of the presentations were. I also noticed that, despite my disappointment that attendance was on the low side (as it ultimately was across Sunday), the number was a perfect fit, given the space. If chairs were moved, we certainly could have worked with a larger group, but I know some of the students defer to academic seniority and would have stepped back if there were too many PhDs in the room."